Sometimes you have to do a little controlling of naps to help sleep turn out for the best.
With younger babies this can mean not letting them sleep more than 1.5-2.5 hours for each nap during the day so that they 1) eat often enough and 2) have enough daily waketime and 3) get their days and nights right. See Eat/Wake/Sleep Routine (EWS) and Parent-Directed Feeding (PDF) for various ways to do this.
Shortening a nap to help other naps
With older babies you sometimes need to shorten a nap, particularly the morning nap, (this can start as early as 10 months of age) for day and night sleep to go well.
The reason for this is if the morning nap is too long, many babies/toddlers won't be able to sleep in the afternoon (even if they are dead tired) which makes for a very long afternoon for mom and baby. If a baby doesn't have sleep from his morning nap until bedtime he is going to be extremely tired by bedtime and you may end up with brand new problems (resisting going to bed, waking at night etc). Plus, the afternoon nap has been found to be the most restorative so if any nap shortening is going to take place, it is best to avoid involving the afternoon nap and focus in on other naps. Sometimes to get the afternoon nap to take place, you end up having it really late which moves bedtime late (Read more on this below).
If your child does end up missing an afternoon nap for whatever reason, it would probably be a good idea to have a super early bedtime.
On a side note for those of you troubleshooting naps, a super early bedtime can sometimes result in a natural shortening of the morning nap which would then help restore the length of the afternoon nap.
Shortening a nap to help with night sleep
If your child is sleeping too long during the day then he's likely missing out on some night sleep. Since night sleep is more restorative than day sleep (although both are needed with young children to function well!), you don't want to skimp on the night sleep in place of super long naps or too many naps.
Sometimes this happens when you are trying to fit X number of naps in but to get your child to actually fall asleep for the naps, you have to have them far apart. As you get them farther apart bedtime moves later and later, especially if you've got long nappers. So to get enough nights sleep you need to either drop a nap, or reduce the length of one of them.
With younger babies this can mean not letting them sleep more than 1.5-2.5 hours for each nap during the day so that they 1) eat often enough and 2) have enough daily waketime and 3) get their days and nights right. See Eat/Wake/Sleep Routine (EWS) and Parent-Directed Feeding (PDF) for various ways to do this.
Shortening a nap to help other naps
With older babies you sometimes need to shorten a nap, particularly the morning nap, (this can start as early as 10 months of age) for day and night sleep to go well.
The reason for this is if the morning nap is too long, many babies/toddlers won't be able to sleep in the afternoon (even if they are dead tired) which makes for a very long afternoon for mom and baby. If a baby doesn't have sleep from his morning nap until bedtime he is going to be extremely tired by bedtime and you may end up with brand new problems (resisting going to bed, waking at night etc). Plus, the afternoon nap has been found to be the most restorative so if any nap shortening is going to take place, it is best to avoid involving the afternoon nap and focus in on other naps. Sometimes to get the afternoon nap to take place, you end up having it really late which moves bedtime late (Read more on this below).
If your child does end up missing an afternoon nap for whatever reason, it would probably be a good idea to have a super early bedtime.
On a side note for those of you troubleshooting naps, a super early bedtime can sometimes result in a natural shortening of the morning nap which would then help restore the length of the afternoon nap.
Shortening a nap to help with night sleep
If your child is sleeping too long during the day then he's likely missing out on some night sleep. Since night sleep is more restorative than day sleep (although both are needed with young children to function well!), you don't want to skimp on the night sleep in place of super long naps or too many naps.
Sometimes this happens when you are trying to fit X number of naps in but to get your child to actually fall asleep for the naps, you have to have them far apart. As you get them farther apart bedtime moves later and later, especially if you've got long nappers. So to get enough nights sleep you need to either drop a nap, or reduce the length of one of them.
What do you think is the best way to wake a baby for a feeding? I try to do it gradually - turning on lights dimly, stopping swing if he is in one, etc), but he is still often mad when I disturb his sleep.
ReplyDeleteLaura
ReplyDeleteThat's a hard one bc if you wake him up at a bad time during his sleep phases he won't feel so great. But it's a bit hard to work around when they are really young and you are trying to feed them often during the day to help them sleep longer at night. As time goes by you may notice that if he sleep too much/too little he ends up being cranky and then you will be able to work around this if possible.
A gradual waking, like you mentioned, is a great idea. I would probably go full on bright lights/sun with a young baby though since they aren't as sensitive to light as an older child. I would also unswaddle if he is swaddled and lay him on a flat surface by himself (this really helps keep babies awake during feedings too). You could then start talking to him to help him rouse. Around 4 months or so I would even open the window curtains/blinds and the door to the room then walk out for a few minutes before coming back to help my son wake up a bit. He didn't fully wake up by this but it helped.
It's possible some of the "madness" he shows is a feeling of hunger suddenly kicking in. Is he happy after you feed him? If not, maybe he didn't get enough sleep and needs a shorter waketime. Good luck!
What is considered "too long" for morning naps?
ReplyDeleteVee,
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the age of your child and how well they are sleeping for the afternoon nap. Before you wean this nap it is usually around 2 hours long assuming your child isn't having problems with short naps. You want to start decreasing the length of the morning nap when the afternoon nap length is suffering and isn't improved by a little increase in waketime before the nap. For some kids this happens around 10 months, for others it happens shortly before they drop the morning nap.
Also, generally the afternoon nap is suppose to be the longest so that you 1)don't end up dropping this nap first leaving you with only a morning nap and a child that is cranky by the time 3pm or so comes around and 2) so that your child has the longest nap of the day before the longest period of time they are up. That said, if your child is having a 3 hour nap in the morning and a 2 hour afternoon nap and sleeping well at night I wouldn't really try to "fix" things unless you start to notice the afternoon nap shortening before the morning nap or similar problems.
hi rachel, i have a 5 month old daughter who sleeps like a champ at night from 630p until 8a (only the occasional disruption, and i still do a dreamfeed because i don't want her going without food for that long), half of the time i have to wake that sweet child up.
ReplyDeletenaps are another story..she always goes in phases of good naps and bad, even though i have tried to stay consistent with babywise and healthy sleep habits as my guidelines. her morning naps i can count on more than 50% of the time, and i let her, she will sleep 2.5 or 3 hours. but it usually means a scant afternoon nap. lately the afternoons have been very dicey, rarely we will get over 1.5 hours, but usually 45min. she has not taken that third nap in a couple of weeks. the last couple of days she stayed up from 1p until 6p, for which she was definitely on edge but not a monster. you can see why i have to put her to bed so early! it, of course, makes sense that she have the longest nap prior to the longest wake time, but i'm a little hesitant that it will backfire! have you tried this?
is it possible that she doesn't need to have as much daytime sleep because of how long she sleeps at night?
also, do you have any tips on how to go about controlling her naps to see if i can add some time to her afternoon nap?
thanks a lot, your blog is great!
the Roache hotel,
ReplyDeleteI would work on focussing on the waketime length and nap length. Start with focussing on the morning nap and going from there. Keep a sleep log so you can seee what lengths work out. My guess is that she can tollerate 1.5-2 horus at a time, probably less in the morning with more in the evening. Less waketime after bad naps (though still somewhat half decent). As for nap length. You might want to limit each to 1.5-2 hours. I would maybe even try not to do much more than 12 hours at night at this time. But I would wean from that slowly as naps improve. If you drop it too much she may be too overtired to sleep or naps.
She probably needs as much day time sleep as others to stay at her best but might be unable to do so with so much night time sleep and without teh correct waketime and nap lengths.
As for controlling naps, limit the mornign nap. Mabye to 1.5 hours. Then work with the waketime after to see what works best. Go from there.
You seem to know your stuff pretty well. A little tweeking and you should hopefully have it figured out. She really is doing very well sleep wise. Yes, maybe not totally consistent, but still very good for her age :)
rachel, thank you for the advice! just a day or two after i wrote you, she started to sleep better for her naps. i did extend her wake time, but i'm unconvinced that anything i do ever matters; i'm just lucky that she sleeps as well as she does. i know better at this point than to have expectations, so i'll enjoy it while it lasts!
ReplyDeletei really appreciate your approach to parenting. it's hard to accept some genetically predisposed traits in your kid when all of these books tell you that your child "should" be doing x or y. sometimes, maybe most of the time, they just are the way they are. it's a little scary but also comforting!
xx
the roache hotel,
ReplyDeleteGlad she is sleeping better. happy to be of help!
As for expectations, I try to hope for the best, work toward my goals, but expect the worst. Then I don't get too upset when the worst inevitably happens :)
Hi Rachel, wondering if you could help me. My baby is 3.5 months old and I'm trying to establish a consistent sleep schedule but not sure where to begin as I think there are a number of issues at play.
ReplyDeleteHere's what his schedule has been like for the past week:
- goes to sleep btw 9:30 and 10 (I put him in his crib earlier but that seems to be the time he falls asleep on his own)
- wakes btn 2 and 2:30 to nurse (I tried to push him to 3 last night and he wasn't having it)
- wakes again btn 5 and 6:30 (I would normally nurse him again and put him back to bed until he woke around 9:00 but then would have trouble with his next nap around 11:00. I then read in Ferber's book that the last part of his sleep is actually his morning nap so the last couple of days I treated his 5-6 waking as being up for the day
- morning nap starts btn 8 - 8:30 depending on when he woke up. The other day I woke him after 3 hrs (resulting in a 30 min afternoon nap); today I woke him after 2 hrs (still resulting in a 30 min afternoon nap)
- afternoon nap starts btn 1:30 - 2:30 depending on tired cues and lasts 30 - 45 mins
- a third nap starting from 6 - 7 and lasting 30 - 45 mins is sometimes required before bed because he gets so cranky
My goals are to get him to sleep earlier (btn 8 and 9); get him to wake later (7 would be fine) and reduce early evening crankiness.
If he wakes btn 5 and 6, should I put him back to bed or keep him up until the morning nap? How long should I let that morning nap go for? And where do I cut off the last nap before bedtime?
Sorry about the novel! Thanks for reading. I look forward to your response! Cheers, Carolyn
Great blog by the way!
ReplyDeleteCarolyn Wong,
ReplyDeleteTake a look at this post
http://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/06/morning-wake-time-timing-morning-wake.html
I would consider the feed at 5/6 to be a night feed but then wake around 7 ish to start the day. The next nap at this age should happen no more than 2 hours later (maybe even 1 hour, being the morning nap), but likely less. Ferber's wake times are longer than most anyone out there, and most moms will say that if they do them, baby gets too overtired and sleeps badly. But every baby is different. Check out the wake time post for more on this.
I would try to have more of a 7-7 routine generally. AT this age bedtime is often a bit later and will shortly move earlier. So you may end up having an extra feeding and nap in there in the evening with a later bedtime. Or you might be ok with a 7-7 routine and a dream feed (see post) with some or no waketime during the dream feed. I think the big issue here is the lack of sleep. He needs more during the day. aT this age babies are often up for 1.5 hours then take a good nap (assuming they don't have an issue with cat napping, which many babies do--check out the post short naps). If you get more sleep in during the day the evenings will be less cranky. At this age you will still have to work a lot with sleep cues and a little by the clock. You will be able to do more of the clock as he gets older and older. I would probably let naps not go more than 2 hours at this age, unless he is really lacking on sleep then a bit more might be fine. you will have to see if a super long nap ends up causing issues.
Good luck. It is tricky to figure out. I am working on a post about the EWS routine which might help you out a bit. Pretty much baby wakes, then east, then plays then sleep and the cycle repeats. Only works this way with long naps. With show naps it may be eat/play/sleep/play/eat/ etc. I think this routine makes it a lot easier to get on a sleep routine.
Rachel
Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. We're starting to figure things out a bit more. I will try moving his bedtime slowly to an earlier time. The last few days he has been fussier than usual so I looked up your Wonder Weeks post and lo and behold, there's one at 15 weeks!
DeleteThanks again! Your blog is great and I think it's amazing that you're helping so many people. Cheers, Carolyn
Carolyn,
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad things are starting to fall into place a bit more. Just take it a day at at time and remember that there are always regressions :)
It really is great to know when those wonder weeks are. It helps out way more than you'd ever think beforehand. At lease this was the case for me.
Rachel
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteI have a 9.5 month old who has always been a great night time sleeper but not such a good daytime napper. Currently he sleeps from about 7pm-7am at night. He usually does about 1.5 hours in the afternoon from 1.30ish on and goes down pretty well. For the last two weeks he won't go down for his morning nap. I was putting him down about 9.30am and have tried making it earlier and later but he will play and cry for up to an hour until I give up because we have to go out somewhere. A few times he hasn't had a morning nap at all and has coped ok but 9.5 months seems too early to drop his morning nap altogether? I'm reluctant to start the nap much later than 10am as it seems to muck up the rest of the day.
Any advice? Great blog by the way.
Thanks,
Sarah
Sedgecombe,
DeleteMake sure to do an earlier bedtime when he struggles with naps, as well as an earlier afternoon nap if he doesn't take the morning nap (well, I'd do this but some people will recommend you keep with the same time as usual with the afternoon nap and do an early bedtime).
Most likely 2-3 hours is going to be a good waketime before that first nap. What were you at before? Try jumping back to that. Keep a log of what he does then.Does he play (screaming in protest for a second then playing counts too) or does he cry an overtired cry. If it's been a while since you had things going smoothly at this time, add some extra waketime in and be consistent for at least a few days before changing things (and keeping track of how he responds). He may be having an off week or something. Oh, as you move that morning nap later you may want to shorten it some if it causes issues with the rest of the day.
Thanks Rachel. It's taken me a while to respond as we've been away a bit so things were all over the place. We are now getting consistent morning naps! I've found that putting him down earlier around 9am seems to be working well. I did have to let him cry it out once for about 15-20 mins but since then no problems. He usually takes 30 mins to get to sleep and only sleeps for 30-45 mins, occasionally longer. But that seems to be enough and makes it easier for us to go out and do things in the morning.
DeleteThanks for your help!
That's great to hear that you've figured out how to get things to work best for your family Sedgecombe! Harder done than said sometimes!
DeleteRachel! You mentioned in one of your comments that this starts happening around 10 mos and that's where I'm at exactly. If my son naps past 1030 he won't go down for the afternoon nap no matter what time I move it to unless I eventually go in and rock him and then only for a short nap and wakes so so grumpy.
ReplyDeleteMy question is though: it seems he would like to sleep from 9-1045/11 but this seems too long for him. He goes down easiest when he wakes around 1015/20 and then goes down between 130/45. Ok the question is that now that he wants to sleep longer when I wake him he is so so upset and grumpy. How do I figure out the best time in his sleep cycle to wake him - and is this the right thing to do?
Molly Erwin,
DeleteTrial and error is you best bet. Try having him wake a tiny bit later and a tiny bit earlier. Try having him wake up more naturally (open the blinds but don't wake him). See if turning on a show or music or reading books right when he wakes helps. I will try to have kids wake up naturally if I can, if not, I'll choose the nap that make the most sense or that they will wake up happy from. Sounds like you can't go any later, so try a bit earlier or consider (if it works) making the first nap very long and then having a short afternoon nap at a later time.
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteMy 4.5 month old has just come out of the 4 month sleep regression I think.
Until about a week ago (for a few weeks) I couldn't get her to sleep more than 40 mins for naps when she would wake up screaming and I would feed her. I have been trying to implement the Eat, Activity, Sleep routine but am EBF and is not always that easy especially with the 40 min naps. She now is able to put herself back to sleep after the 40 mins and now naps for a lot longer. My problem is that her morning nap is now really long! I have been waking her up after 2.5 hours to make sure she feeds 4 hours from the last feed but I'm sure she'd sleep longer.
In the morning I put her down to sleep about 1hr40min -2 hours after she has been awake and she goes to sleep on her own in her cot. I would like to try and get her to take a longer sleep at lunchtime (at the moment she only sleeps for about 40mins sometimes an hour and then takes a nap in the buggy a couple of hours or so from bedtime. (This is only 30 mins)
Alaya goes to bed anytime around 6.30-7.30 normally I aim for 7 but depends on when the last nap of the day ends. She is still feeding 2 times at night at around 10.30 - 11.30 but the last few days has been closer to 12.30-1am. She then feeds around 3.30-4.30 but the last few days has been closer to 5-5.30.
Should I try and alter her nap patterns during the day to get a shorter nap in the morning and a longer one at lunch or go with it at the moment and see what she does on her own. The days that I have woken her up to get to a club or an appointment she doesn't sleep anymore in the afternoon and ends up grumpy because she doesn't sleep enough.
Thanks in advance
Caroline
Hey there,
ReplyDeleteI have an 8 month old with an irregualr sleep pattern, my question is, we have Tuesday morning activity and its always at 930, but my daughter always seems to fall asleep around 8 or 830am, so should i wake her to go to our activity? I try to keep her up but she won't have it..... postpone the activity?
Char,
DeleteIf you can easily work around things that disrupt naps, I would do it. If it's hard to work around, then I would skip it only if your child has a really hard time with a disrupted routine. You could always try to have her down by 8 Tuesdays (make sure to get her up at a consistent time in the morning) then get her up by 9:30. That'll give her a good nap still.
Almost 9 month old who I'm having a hard time watching for the right time to put her down for nap #2! It's like if I miss it I'm toast and she's miserable and cries for 3+ hours!! :( she wakes around 6:30/7 every morning and nap#1 is around 9-10:15/10:30. Nap #2 seems to be around 1 is our best time but its hard to make it if we are out for the day! So, according to this post it will be best to either shorten the first nap or have a car nap so we can be at our destination when she wakes. Am I right? Also, if she wakes at 3 from her 1-1:30 nap should bedtime be 7? I've been doing 7:30! Thank you for all you do!! My lo is VeRY sleep sensitive
ReplyDeleteTarayn Comer,
DeleteIf you need to be out, then those options sounds good. Most likely she'd do better with a bit earlier of a bedtime, maybe even earlier than 7. Test it out and see how she does.
Rachel
Thank you so much! I will try for an earlier bedtime and see what happens.
DeleteOne more afternoon nap question--sometimes she goes to sleep and wakes at the 45ish min mark and will not go to sleep but these are disastrous as well! The crying starts after she's been up about an hour and she can't make it any longer. Do I just put down for another nap at this time or put her to bed earlier?
DeleteTarayn, I'd leave her in her bed for 1-1.5 hours, whether she is sleeping or not so she has a rest period. Then I'd probably put her down super early for the night. You can experiment and see what works though. IF she's crying after an hour, a 45 minutes nap might not make bedtime too late.
DeleteHi, I finally night weaned my daughter and trying to get her onto a 7-7 schedule. She has a tendency to wake up on the earlier side-somewhere between 530-6 and i put her down for am nap as close to 9 as I can get her to (830-9 range). On days when she wakes early, she tends to take a very long am nap- close to 2 hours. I have finally got the afternoon nap down- about 3.25 hours after she wakes from a.m. nap but she will only take about an hour nap. I really want her to take a longer pm nap because she seems less active and alert in the afternoon. I have been stretching her last wake time to about 4 hours ( a stretch) but most days that gets us to a bedtime of 630. Any suggestions as to how to get her to nap longer in afternoon? Is 8 months too young to be shortening am nap? I feel like she is taking a long am nap as a way to extend nighttime sleep. thanks so much for your help!
ReplyDelete