When to use it:
*Short naps*"Refuses" to nap
*Early morning awakenings (when they are due to something mom and dad have done like taking their child into their bed each morning rather than a child's sleep rhythms--see early morning awakenings post)
*Night time awakenings (besides possibly one at this age to eat)
*Child is unable to put himself to sleep without outside assistance (see accidental parenting and sleep props/associations)
*Help establish or extend a routine
How to use it:
When your child cries go into him and offer 1)comforting words (or maybe even a song) while 2) placing your hand on his back. If he is under 6 months of age, you can also do shush-pat (note that although TBW suggests this for babies under 6 months, it will work for some past this time so try it out first to see if it will work). If you are unable to comfort your baby in his crib after a short period of time then 3) pick him up. The moment he stops crying say your sleepy phrase ("time to go to sleep" etc), place him back down in his crib and put your hand on his back and offer words of comfort. If he starts to cry again (which he probably will do) then pick him back up again and repeat the process as necessary. As soon as he falls into a deep sleep remove your hand from his back and leave the room. Over time you will want to remove your hand sooner so the pressure of your hand doesn't become a sleep prop.
Instead of keeping your hand on baby until he falls into a deep sleep, you may also want to try removing your hands from baby when he starts to settle to sleep and take a step back and see if he can put himself to sleep the rest of the way. You can gradually move farther from the crib during this stage (either during the first attempt or over days) until you are out the door.
Trouble shooting tips: Be sure to look at the age specific points at the very bottom of the list.
*If baby starts to cry as you are placing him back into his crib, continue placing him into his crib all the way and then pick him back up again.
*If baby arches his back, hits you or is in any other way aggressive while you are holding him, place him back down into his bed. Then start over from the beginning with comforting words with your hand on his back.
*If baby is acting out in his crib (flopping around etc) then offer comforting words and maybe a hand on his back to help calm him down physically before you pick him up (or you may end up with a black eye).
*Don't be surprised if baby protests P.U./P.D. if he is not used to sleeping by himself. This method does not prevent crying, but it does do it in a secure environment.
*Since P.U./P.D. is often a lot of works, you may want to recruit your spouse and/or other people to help you do this technique.
*The Baby Whisperer says that P.U./P.D. takes an average of 20 minutes, although it can take over an hour (or more!) with some babies.
*Remember to be consistent, stay calm and keep a calm, comforting voice.
*Don't make eye contact, smile or do any other distracting or fun thing with your child at this time.
*Inserting pacifiers, feeding to sooth and rocking are no nos when doing P.U./P.D. You should not be continuing a sleep prop likes these (or starting one) when you are doing P.U./P.D. to get rid of sleep props. Even a lovey shouldn't be handed to baby when put back in bed. Baby should reach for it just like she will have to do when you are not there.
*If baby will not stop crying during the P.U. part then P.D., offer some comforting words followed by (or at the same time as) a comforting touch or shush/pat if needed. If he is still upset then continue with P.U. again. Using this method you are reassuring baby you are there for him although you are not helping him calm down in your arms. The reassurance is the most important part.
*Many people when doing P.U./P.D. will start with comforting words, if this doesn't work move onto a comforting touch or shush/pat and if this doesn't work pick up baby. The Baby Whisperer suggests touch and words at the same time in her book. I prefer starting with words and moving to touch if needed because it is better if you can put baby to sleep with only your vice compared to your voice and touch.
*You might want to consider wearing ear plugs during the process. You will still hear baby, but it won't be as loud.
*If baby starts to play when she sees you look down at the discussion below in the comments between me (Rachel) and Michelle for some pointers.
*For 4-6 month olds: Do not hold them longer than 2-3 minutes at a time. Just put them down (all the way down) after this much time has passed then pick them back up again if they are still crying. Holding a baby too long at this age can lead to mom and/or dad turning into a prop.
*For 6-8 month olds: If your baby gets more upset when you pick him up first hold out your hands to him and wait until he holds out his hands to you before picking him up. Once you have picked up your baby, put him in a horizontal position while saying comforting words then place him right back down in his crib again. You may need to walk away from his crib while he is settling/calming down because your appearance may be distracting and make him more upset.
*For 8-12 month olds: Babies this age usually settle better outside your arms so don't pick him up unless he gets very upset. Instead, do the put down part of P.U./P.D. when your baby completely stands or sits by taking him in your arms and laying him back down with his face facing away from you. When he is lying in his bed continue to offer words of comfort and place your hand on his back.
If this post has been helpful for you, please consider following me on facebook, twitter or subscribing to my posts through email or a reader.
Hi Rachel!
ReplyDeleteGreat Blog Rachel ... thank you so much! I'm working with my 17 week old with early nap due to transitioning issues. At first I tried to use the swing during the second half of his nap after his early awakening, to try to get him used to sleeping a longer stretch. this worked and kept him from getting overtired, but don't want the swing to be a prop. I'm trying the pu/pd method but not sure how long I'm supposed to keep it up before waiting till the next cycle the last try was an hour! He just gets sooo worked up and inconsolable at a certain point. He's so overtired he's likely delusional, but won't let himself so to sleep. In fact he won't stop screaming even while i'm holding him for a long time. If he does go to sleep he will only sleep for like 5 minutes while I shhh pat and then back to sqaure one. Would you mind sharing any thoughts? I've tried going to babywhisperer.com however i havnt been able to access the site for several days ... Thanks!
Ashlee
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, the baby whisperer says to continue P.U./P.D. for as long as needed--that is until nap time is over/baby is hungry. It can get pretty intense and tiring so she suggests getting some outside help if needed.
If he is taking a really long time to calm down when you hold him with P.U./P.D. (my son was like this--he would get more upset. I was more of an upsetting influence rather than a calming influence) then it might not be the best method for your son in my opinion although I think the baby whisperer would probably say that if you continued doing it long enough and are consistent your son will eventually get it. I've found that a lot of her methods assume that your child is soothed by your presence when in fact there are children that are not at all soothed to sleep by a parent's presence. Over time if you continued her methods your child may be more likely to be soothed by your presence but to what extent I'm not sure. Anyway, that's my soapbox moment :)So...the baby whisperer may be right and if you do it long enough your son will eventually get it and be more quickly soothed. Or you may have more luck doing another method likely simply soothing him to sleep when he wakes (by holding him, with a swing etc.) or by doing a mini-pre-nap ritual again.
About the swing. As long as you are having your baby go to sleep by himself and he isn't having other wake up problems besides the transition time I don't see too much of a problem witht he swing. It is a bit of a prop, but often as babies get older they learn to sleep through the transition themselves if they have good sleep habits. But you certainly don't have to use it if you feel uncomfortable with it. It's up to you.
Thanks Rachel!
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that as long as he can put himself to sleep the first time then the props are not too bad after he wakes at the 45 minutes? he can mostly get himself to sleep and has since coming home from the hospital at bed time. We struggle a little more at naps, but It's the transition then the overtired that follows which I believe to be the main problem. he will sleep all day in his swing I just worry about being dependent on it.
My son also seems to be agitated most days with any patting and the pu/pd today was terrible! So I really appreciated your "soapbox moment" he just got all worked up and super angry and then overtired and then couldn't sleep and then it was time to eat and then start all over again. So I'm not sure if I should try it for a couple more days. I don't want to CIO with him because he just gets so worked up and angry and then can't settle down. He seemed to respond today best with a firm hand on his back while he was on his side and then I leaned really close to him in almost a cuddle and then talked to him then shhhed. But only when he was all worn out from the PU/PD. Thanks again!!!
No sleep prop would be ideal, but if you are having to use a sleep prop as long as it is not the majority of the time I don't think it is too big of a deal. Sometimes you have to bend the rules for certain situations and wakings during nap time is one of these in my opinion. Look over these two posts if you haven't already: http://mybabysleepguide.blogspot.com/2009/02/waking-early-from-naps.html
ReplyDeletehttp://mybabysleepguide.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-to-extend-short-nap.html
I think that it would probably be a good idea to continue the P.U./P.D. for a few more days to see if it gets any better. Even though he seems to be getting more aggitated by it I think I would want to try it a bit longer to make sure it didn't start getting better because sometimes things get worse before they get better and sometimes baby reacts differently than we expected.
It's funny. My son was a bit different when he was a newborn but when he got older, especially now, there is no way he will ever fall asleep in my arms. So many books say to hold your child in your arms until he stops crying/falls asleep/gets sleepy but what all they fail to mentioned is that some babies do not fall asleep or calm down in arms. Some get more hysterical. Like with P.U./P.D. my son would cry less in his crib and more in my arms :) Now he'll calm down in my arms in the middle of the night or a nap but this only started a few months ago.
my guy seemed like a "textbook" baby until I tried to get him on a schedule and sleep past 45 minutes. =)
ReplyDeleteI decided to try to help with transitions for a week because I think that's the main problem right now. That and the subsequent overtired that follows. I had some success so far today going in and shhhing him at about 35 minutes (before his transition) and then thru 55 minutes (after his transition). Once he got thru that he slept for a total of 2 hours and 15 minutes! When he's not overtired he gets himself to sleep with little or no assistance
Thanks for posting about the swing. I think I've just been a bit frightened about it becoming a prop, but hearing that it's not that bad helps me feel like I can resort to it for a while more while helping him learn to transition. I can start fresh with the next nap that way =)
I'm pretty sure I've read all the posts regarding naps, however I will re-read =)
Do you have any idea how long it takes babies with this issue to grow out of it. Or if what I did today works, how long I should expect it to take him to do it on his own? THANKS!!!!
Ashlee
ReplyDeleteIt sounds pretty contradicting for me to say the swing is ok when you read some of my other posts, but I think this is an exception (when done appropriately at least--e.g. baby is at least falling asleep by himself at the beginning of the nap). At least this is my opinion right now :)
As for when these short naps will end, HSHHC says that they will end by 21 months if not before. I have always heard much sooner than this. I'm really not sure what the exact age would be that babies naturally transition through this. That's a hard one. I think that it is often between 5-8 months of age with some babies stopping sooner and some later. Also, often trying sleep training again at this time will work when it didn't work before.
Great Rachel! Thanks so much for sharing your time with me. It's been very encouraging.
ReplyDeleteAshlee
ReplyDeleteI'm glad I was helpful. Good luck!
Hi...I'm so glad I got to see some insight on PUPD now that the sight is down =(. I have a 4 month old and, like most babies, she wakes up exactly after 45 minutes...like clockwork for her 2 naps. Funny thing is..her first nap...she is able to sleep for 2+ hours and she can easily put herself back to sleep. However, as if it's a habit, her second nap, she always wakes after 45 minutes no matter what time I put her down. I tried tweaking her activity time--putting her down after 1 hour, an hour and ten, an hour and a half but it doesn't matter. I find that to be odd that she is able to put herself back to sleep without any problem in the morning, but her second nap is always short without fail. Has anyone else had any experience with this? We, also have been doing PU/PD for about 3-4 days now...has anyone had success with this? In her book, it mentions that it should take less and less time for the baby to go back down, however, ours is sporadic. Some days, it will take my husband 30 minutes of doing it, and other days an hour....Thanks for sharing your thoughts =). It's helpful to know that other moms have tried it...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI have heard of quite a few babies taking a good long morning nap but not long naps durng the rest of the day. If it is not due to overtiredness or a too long of nap in the morning causing short naps later on (more of a problem with older children) I think it may be due in part to the fact that often babies are more tired in the mornings and are therefore able to make it through the sleep transition better. This is just an idea though. I'm really not sure why. I'll let you know if I find out.
It's too bad that babywhisperer.com is down. Do you know if they plan on putting it back up again? It was such a good resource for people.
I do know of some people that have had success with P.U./P.D. Do be careful to not hold too long though since this can create other problems. Also, it is pretty common for there to be ups and downs with how long it takes. The hope is that over time there will be an overall trend that shows a decreasing time for it to work.
Good luck. Let us (by "us" I mean visitors to this blog:) know how it goes!
Rachel,
ReplyDeleteYour blog is a godsend! I just have to leave a message praising you for the incredible job you've done in researching and sharing all this useful sleep training info. As I was reading your "About Me" section, I was thinking I could have written the exact same myself. I've been obsessively researching and reading to help my 6 month old sleep better (especially naps) and now I feel like I could have just read your blogs and saved the time and trouble. I LOVE that someone (you!) read all those books and created a comprehensive guide that can help many parents out. In fact, I've read many of the books and I actually like YOUR blog better because it compares all the different approaches and theories. Kudos to you, really! You're absolutely awesome and deserve so much credit for putting this together!!!!
Angela,
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad this blog has been helpful! Hopefully as time goes by I'll be able to organize it a lot better to make it more user friendly.
My son is almost 6 month old (adjusted age... his actual age is almost 8 months, but we follow everything by adjusted age) and has been waking at ~30 minutes ON THE DOT for all 3 of his naps since he was just over 3 months old! Its been awful! He sleeps fine at night (usually 12 hours) but during the day, he fights naps like a mad man and then wakes up SCREAMING and crying hard after 30 minutes. That is what tipped me off that it was a transition problem. In the early days I would sit in the dark by his bassinet and could WATCH the moment it happened, 30 minutes in to his nap, he would wake with a start and begin crying hard. Incredible.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I will get lucky and he will take 1 good nap a day (good being over an hour) but its completely random when his naps are good. Ive been keeping a log since he was born and added nap details in the log when I noticed he started having problems. I cannot for the life of me figure out why sometimes he naps well, but more often he cannot transition.
His wake time is about 2 hours max, maybe a little less. Once he rubs his eyes 3 times I start trying to put him down. I think I might need to back it up to one eye-rub, because he seems to go into overtired mode very easily and then it takes longer to put him down. When he was 4-5 months or so I spent some time trying a 90 minute wake time to no avail. Still 30 minute naps.
He is formula fed (recently weaned from breast milk, but not breast fed--I EPed) and we try solids every so often but he isnt very interested. He is on Prevacid for reflux. We have a pretty good schedule and I am very good about sticking to it (I myself need a schedule to function, and he just kind of fell into one). He goes to bed pretty easily at night--can usually be put down partially awake--and sleeps for 11 or 12 hours straight unless he is having tummy troubles.
I have tried shush/pat but we both hated it and now he is getting too old for it. We do PUPD sometimes but he is one of those kids that gets more upset in my arms. Its like he knows that I am trying to put him back to sleep by holding/swaying/shushing him, and he gets upset because he doesnt WANT to sleep (I know this isnt the case... the poor kid is exhausted!). I usually just give in and try to rock him back to sleep. This makes him more upset (the rocking) and eventually I either give up and just accept that the nap was only 30 minutes long, or he passes back out from crying so hard. Then if I put him down, he usually wakes up again almost right away. So I sometimes rock him for like an hour until he wakes up naturally and in a good mood! Usually though I give up.
The short naps are wearing heavy on me. I am going to try wake-to-sleep starting tomorrow. Maybe a firm hand on his back will help him transition. I will let you know how it works out!
My son is almost 6 month old (adjusted age... his actual age is almost 8 months, but we follow everything by adjusted age) and has been waking at ~30 minutes ON THE DOT for all 3 of his naps since he was just over 3 months old! Its been awful! He sleeps fine at night (usually 12 hours) but during the day, he fights naps like a mad man and then wakes up SCREAMING and crying hard after 30 minutes. That is what tipped me off that it was a transition problem. In the early days I would sit in the dark by his bassinet and could WATCH the moment it happened, 30 minutes in to his nap, he would wake with a start and begin crying hard. Incredible.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I will get lucky and he will take 1 good nap a day (good being over an hour) but its completely random when his naps are good. Ive been keeping a log since he was born and added nap details in the log when I noticed he started having problems. I cannot for the life of me figure out why sometimes he naps well, but more often he cannot transition.
His wake time is about 2 hours max, maybe a little less. Once he rubs his eyes 3 times I start trying to put him down. I think I might need to back it up to one eye-rub, because he seems to go into overtired mode very easily and then it takes longer to put him down. When he was 4-5 months or so I spent some time trying a 90 minute wake time to no avail. Still 30 minute naps.
(continued from above)
ReplyDeleteHe is formula fed (recently weaned from breast milk, but not breast fed--I EPed) and we try solids every so often but he isnt very interested. He is on Prevacid for reflux. We have a pretty good schedule and I am very good about sticking to it (I myself need a schedule to function, and he just kind of fell into one). He goes to bed pretty easily at night--can usually be put down partially awake--and sleeps for 11 or 12 hours straight unless he is having tummy troubles.
I have tried shush/pat but we both hated it and now he is getting too old for it. We do PUPD sometimes but he is one of those kids that gets more upset in my arms. Its like he knows that I am trying to put him back to sleep by holding/swaying/shushing him, and he gets upset because he doesnt WANT to sleep (I know this isnt the case... the poor kid is exhausted!). I usually just give in and try to rock him back to sleep. This makes him more upset (the rocking) and eventually I either give up and just accept that the nap was only 30 minutes long, or he passes back out from crying so hard. Then if I put him down, he usually wakes up again almost right away. So I sometimes rock him for like an hour until he wakes up naturally and in a good mood! Usually though I give up.
The short naps are wearing heavy on me. I am going to try wake-to-sleep starting tomorrow. Maybe a firm hand on his back will help him transition. I will let you know how it works out!
ooops, double post! Sheesh it told me there was an error. Sorry!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteShort naps are a pretty common issue, even with kids that know how to put themselves initially to sleep. My kids have had issues with them, though at different times. Make sure to look over the short nap post and extending nap post if you haven't already. Unfortunately, there seems to be not tons you can do with some kids besides wait it out or work around it by either helping them go back to sleep, wake to sleep or adding in more naps throughout the day with shorter wake times. And the tough thing is that kids will sometimes have good and bad days for no apparent reason so don't drive yourself crazy trying to figure out what was different because you may not ever find anything. It is good to analyze a bit though like you have done.
Have you tried helping him go back to sleep the second he wakes up, or even started to soothe him before he wakes?
I understand how the shush/pat can drive you crazy. It was not very effective with my first and about drove me insane! P.U./P.D. also wasn't effect for him either. He also hated sleep. Sounds like we had some similar boys :) I found that I eventually just had to leave him alone to go to sleep. No fun, but it worked pretty quick for him. If it hadn't have worked, I might have tried something else. The wake to sleep is a good idea. Whatever you do, I would try to be consistent and look at your end goal.It sounds like holding him to sleep isn't working since he ends up waking up when you put him down. I think that pu/pd might work, but you will probably end up holding a screaming child for a long time for many days. But, he won't be alone crying which may be a plus for you. Sorry I don't have tons of additional advice to add (make sure to look at the two posts I mentioned too). I will say that I would try to relax more about it and have the mindset that bad naps will not ruin your day. I know this is hard to do! Pick a method and stick to it. Have your family/friends give you encouragement bc it will probably be hard whatever you do. You'll want to cave in. But if you do, you'll probably not see any changes. Good luck!
Hi there,
ReplyDeleteI've been doing pupd on my 6 and a half month old daughter for 2days. The first day it worked really well (almost too well). Today it's a bit more difficult but part of the problem is that there are a couple of scenarios where I'm not sure what to do. Basically, I settle her for a nap by holding her and patting her back then I lay her down awake and leave the room. If she starts crying, I go in and put my hands on her back and chest. The problem is that often at this point she starts getting excited and waving her arms and legs around to try to get me to play. What do I do here? Do I stay with my hands on her til she (hopefully) falls asleep? Or leave the room? I have been leaving the room and returning to put my hands on her when she cries - once she starts playing I leave again but I don't think this is right as aren't you supposed to stay with them? Today I left the room a few times when she started playing and then eventually stayed with my hands on her chest and back - eventually she got frustrated and started crying so I then did pupd which worked fine. It just seems that I can't get her to sleep when she's laying there playing - I have to make her cry so I can do the pick up bit as that's the part that actually works!!! (And yes, she's definitely tired!)
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteI've had the same issues as you before with one method or another as baby gets older and more social. Makes sleep training with you in baby's presence a bit difficult, more so with some babies than others. I would first try to darken the room. Then I would try to stand to the side or even with your head below the crib mattress so baby can't see you. This might not help if baby can move around well. At least keep a straight face and I'd probably even avoid eye contact. you might want to try some words like, it's time to go to sleep, which you should also say when you initially put baby down to signal what is going on.
As for what to do next, you probably won't love this response, but I think either one of the things you have done is a good option. You want to be with baby when she cries, but if she is happy, that is something else. It would be nice if she just went to sleep with your hand on her without any crying, but many, and probably most, babies won't. Unless they love to sleep or are used to sleeping next to mom, they'll probably get upset if mom won't play with them or if mom leaves their side (you've noticed both things happen). You just have to keep up what you are doing and let baby know that 1) it is not time to play and 2) it is time to sleep all by herself in her own bed. Baby will likely protest both things. Even now my 7 month old that sleeps well by himself will try to start playing with me if I ever go into his room when he is in his bed. If i leave he'll just go back to sleep bc he's got the going to sleep by himself stuff down, but he still tries to see if he can get away with playing. Likely if I stayed by his side he would start crying bc I wasn't playing.
If she starts to play one thing you might want to try to do is back up so she can't see you, but so you are still in the room. She'll probably get upset, then you can go and comfort her. With some babies being able to see mom by the crib helps them nod off,but I'm guessing this won't be the case with you, at least not at first.
Part of the P.U./P.D. is picking up baby when she cries, and putting her down when she stops. So it is going to involve crying :( It is just the next step past the four s routine. No crying is ideal and you try to work toward that, but once you get to a certain point, some babies are going to cry with the method you are using. Other sleep training strategies will use methods to prevent all crying, but what they often involve is something that turns out to be a sleep prop (nursing, holding etc) that you have to work to wean from later on. Good luck! Sorry to not be more help!
Thanks Rachel. I've basically been doing what you say - when I put her down, if she plays, I leave the room. She'll then cry and I'll return and calm her in her cot and she'll start playing again. This goes on for a while with me in and out and then she'll start properly crying and I have to pick up/put down. I just hope that the going in and out of the room when she's doing the playing doesn't give her the wrong message in some way.
ReplyDeleteIt's been going well so far apart from the nap she just had - she took a while to get to sleep and woke after half an hour. She seemed quite upset and wouldn't resettle. I suspected teething pain so got her up and gave her some pain relief. I'm hoping it was just teeth pain and not her being unsettled because the going in and out of the room while she plays hasn't messed everything up in some way!
...sorry, just to check, if she starts to play, I should leave the room and return if/when she starts to cry (after a few minutes) and try to settle her in her cot unless she won't stop crying and then I should pupd?
ReplyDeleteI just want to check as the last two naps, she's cried the minute I've left the room and then started playing when I return. Up til now, she's been pretty much settling herself when I leave the room and I'm worried I'm confusing her or doing something wrong!!
...sorry to keep posting but I'm in real danger of messing this up and creating another prop for her!!! Just put her to bed - got her calm, put her in cot, left room and she cried. Second I enter room she starts waving arms and legs to play so I put hands on her and then I've been doing a mixture of staying with her to calm her down or leaving immediately and returning when she cries - because I don't know which is best?!?! Every time I put my hands on her she wants to play - unless I leave the room enough times to make her get herself into a state - then I either end up settling her to sleep with my hands on her or she ends up crying enough that I have to pupd. I thought the idea was that you settle them in their cot if you can, not provoke them into crying so that you have to pupd? Does this make sense?!! Sorry again but this worked so well until this playing business- if I mess it up now, I'll be devastated!
ReplyDeleteMichelle,
ReplyDeleteYeah, if you can settle them in their bed without crying that is definitely better. But with older babies this can get harder, especially if they are ones that just want to play with mom when they see her rather than be comforted to sleep by her presence. Honestly, this is why I usually change things up when baby gets a bit older. Many of the techniques I use on a newborn are tougher to do with an older baby, but that doesn't mean they won't work. It will just be little different. I'll finish up the rest of this soon...baby just woke up.
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteMake sure your wake time is long enough. This could be why she wants to play instead of sleep. That said, my boys have ALWAYS wanted to play regardless of how tired they are. But they are very social guys. Sleep is the last thing on their to do list!
You really have to tweek things dependong on what works for you and your daughter. With my 7 month old, if he starts to play when I go in I touch him tummy, tell him it is time to go to sleep and then leave. He mgiht let out a cry for about two seconds, but then he usually goes right back to sleep. If this happens most of the time to you, you might want to do something similar, but if it doesn't, staying in the room *might* work out better. Just remember the no eye contact. And keep in mind that you are not suppose to interfere if baby is not crying. So if you walk in and she starts to play, do not make eye contact and stand near her and see if she'll fall asleep on her own. Some babies will bc they just want mom's presence. But some babies (most likely yours and certainly mine) will cry bc they want to hang out with mom. Then you move onto the p.u./p.d. I know it is no fun bc you sit there pretty much waiting for baby to cry. But I can't really think of another way to do it without causing other issues to develop. Eventually she'll get the idea of what is going to happen and stop calling for you with the intent of playing with you.
Hope this helps. It is a bit tricky to figure out! Good luck!
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your advice, I don't know what I'd do without you, you're my only source of advice!! I was at the end of my tether last night because she was crying and I didn't know what to do - go in the room, stay in there, go in and out etc.2 days into pupd, she was a dream - napping for ages, falling asleep alone and then just one episode with this 'playing' business which I didn't know how to deal with and it all went wrong which is so soul-destroying. Thing is, I don't mind how long the method takes etc as long as I know I'm doing it right and not teaching different bad habits.
Anyway, I just put her down for a nap now, left the room and she started to cry. As I re-entered the room, she started to play so I put my hands on her, said 'sleepytime' and sat by the cot looking at the floor. Every time she started to cry, I put my hands on her and said sleepytime which calmed her- if she started to get excited, I took my hands off. I kept doing this. Eventually, I had my hands on her and she calmed but then started to cry so I picked her up and as I put her down her eyes closed. I put my hand on her chest til she seemed to be in a deep sleep. Does any of this sound like I'm creating a further prop for her? Is it ok for her to fall asleep with my hands on her?
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteSounds like you found out what works for you guys which is great. And it isn't uncommon for this sleep to get better with this method and then worse for a while followed by better again.
The baby whisperer does mention to keep your hands on baby until she is in a deep sleep with this method and with p.u./p.d. I think mainly because so often after a lot of work people get their baby to a sleepy state and then they remove their hand or presence and baby wakes up and they have to do the routine all over again and again and again. But this can turn into a sleep prop for some babies so I would either 1) do it but slowly decrease how long you keep your hands on baby's chest or 2) only keep your hand there just after baby calms down like you initially did. It may take longer at first for her to fall asleep this way but once she gets it down she'll fall asleep easier for you compared to if she normally has the pressure of your hand on her chest.
What you are doing sounds great.
Rachel
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThank you so, so much for your advice. I've been sticking at it and fingers' crossed, it's going really well at the moment - the odd glitch here or there but that's to be expected.
Thanks again - your site is a God-send!
Michelle
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteGlad things are going well! And happy this site has been helpful.
I'm back again :(
ReplyDeleteThe reason I started pupd was because my baby couldn't get to sleep without being bounced, plus her naps were only 45 mins long AND she'd just started habitually waking several times a night. PUPD has solved the bouncing. I also thought it had solved the nap length time but this is very hit and miss - yesterday she slept in the morning for 45 mins, lunchtime for 1.30hr and late afternoon for 30mins. She was still tired after the shorter naps.
The habitual waking stopped except at 5.30am when she is waking up crying (I'm used to her waking up happy).I had been doing pupd to get her back to sleep when she first started doing this and it would take about 1hr 10 and she'd go back to sleep - but I understand wake to sleep is advised to break the habit. So I've started doing that (although I'm not sure I'm 'waking' her enough!)- first day she still roused at 5.30 but went back to sleep. This morning she woke crying at 6am instead (normal wake up is 6.30-7am). I was going to pupd but it was so close to her feed time, it seemed pointless. To be fair, once she'd fed, she was fine and happy.
So basically - am I doing the right thing? Will it work?!! As for the naps - when she wakes up early from a nap, she's miserable but not crying. If I put my hand on her chest, she just lays there looking at me. For PUPD to work, I'd have to get her upset and crying (which seems silly!) Should I just give in and get her up??
So sorry for the long post. I'm feeling very down about the whole thing and just seem to cry and feel angry all day. It feels like every day is a battle. Instead of enjoying my daughter, I'm starting to feel resentful and it always feels like just as I've solved one problem, there's another to work on. My brain just cannot ever switch off.
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteOh, Michelle, sorry you are having such a rough time. You sound a lot like I was with my first. Bad naps would ruin my day and make me so stressed. It was hard not let them make or break my day. My sister would always tell me to expect bad naps and be happily surprised when you had good ones. Easier said than done or course. But you really need to try to have a change of perspective on stuff so you can enjoy life more and especially your little girl. Try to work toward goals but at the same time go with the flow when needed. Throw in an extra nap if there have been short naps that day etc. And remember that there are always up and down days. This is especially important to remember when you have a down day :)
Short naps can be hit and miss for a while (well, even my 3 year old will have a random, rare day when he doesn't fall asleep for one). I would work on getting her wake time down. This will make some of the biggest difference. Maybe keep a log of them and how naps go. Look at the short nap post.
I think either pu/pd or wake to sleep will work for the early morning wake ups. It will probably depend on the baby which is more effective. Wake to sleep is a bit easier and can have quicker results so I'd probably do that first. Once a baby wakes a little before normal wake time it can be tough to get them back to sleep no matter what method you do.
For short naps look at the nap extension post. At her age I would probably leave her for a bit to see if she goes to sleep on her own. She might do some kind of mantra cry for a couple minutes then go to sleep. If she doesn't then you could go in and try pu/pd. I would not get her up unless you have tried things and nothing seems to work otherwise she'll get into the habit of short naps and might not get out of it on her own, or at least not for a very long time. But, if you are feeling overwhelmed I would get her up. Doing pu/pd at the beginning of a nap then in the middle can be a little too much to handle. You might want to try rushing in the second she wakes to sooth her back to sleep. Kind of what we were saying not to do before though huh! Said to not sooth unless baby cries, but in the middle of naps I think you've got to do things a bit differently sometimes. I know it isn't fun to hear her cry but try to think of it as more of a way of communication. She's saying "mom, I'm still super tired but playing sounds like fun still" or "mom, I have a weird wet feeling down there and I don't like it". I hate to hear kids cry too but I personally think that blocking out all crying (especially as they get to toddler years) will just result in a little diva and a worn out mom who has no control over anything. You try to minimize it for sure, but sometimes crying will take place while you are teaching (and disciplining) and it is just what needs to happen while babies/children talk and vent their frustrations etc.
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for your kind words. I know you're right, I have to try to be rational and not let bad naps ruin my day, as they have been. I think it's just I was so elated when I started this whole sleep training thing, as it worked really quickly, so when I started getting the odd hiccup here and there, it made me feel really down. Just got to get a grip!
Somedays I wonder, how on earth did our mothers cope without the internet and all these different sleep methods?! Puts things into perspective a little!
Thank you again.
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteyou are welcome and good luck!
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteI think you are a saint for answering everyone's questions with the crazy busy life you lead. Thank you for gathering all this information and sharing! I've been dreading sleep training since my son was born. He is 6 months old and I started pu/pd yesterday. First night was 2 hours and 15 minutes, tonight was 1 hour! Yay! I'm not doing it for naps or for night wakings after midnight. I wanted to ask you think that is ok and if that is confusing for my son? And will it work anyways? it seems to. Thanks again so much for what you've done with this blog!
Tanya
Tanya,
ReplyDeleteRemember that sleep training can go up and down so if you have a rough day, keep it up. The fifth day is often a rough one for many babies so especially keep that in mind.
It will probably be more effective if you do both naps and night or all naps or all night, but just doing it when going to bed might be ok. Once some babies get the going to sleep initially down they stop having most or all night wakings, but this is not the case for all babies. You will have to feel things out. But I would do it for just going to bed, not until midnight. That can be a bit tricky for you baby to understand. Maybe if he wakes after a short time consider it still going to bed, but if he sleeps for a good chunk and you don't plan on doing it for the whole night, I wouldn't do it after this point.
And I have been considering turning comments off for awhile so I can get some time to put up new posts and get over illness myself. But now you are making me feel even worse than I already was for contemplating doing that :)
Good luck!
Rachel
Oh god noooo don't let me make you feel bad! I would have turned comments off a long time ago. I can barely get dinner on the table each night. Thank you for your advice, I'm glad I didn't confuse baby already, he woke within 45 minutes and I did another hour of pu/pd. I will try with just bedtime for now. I can't imagine the 5th night being worse than 2 hrs,and 15 minutes, yikes! Rachel I hope you feel better soon, you've helped a lot of peiple already. Now go and focus on yourself :)
ReplyDeleteHi there! great site, thank you!
ReplyDeleteMaybe a silly question - but one thing I do not understand about PU/PD: when baby (6 month in my case) is put down, how long do you wait before you pick him up if he starts crying right away? I know that with my guy I would need to give him 10 seconds or so to start to settle himself... I tried this last night and realized I did not know what I was doing! I got through it ok but it was hard! baby slept very well afterwards though :) Sigh. But I think I sort of shocked him and he seemed a bit resentful this morning. Makes me sad. He probably would have put himself back to sleep faster without the pu/pd if I had let him CIO. But the CIO is just not in my DNA. I can't do it. Plus, I needed a LONG-term sustainable solution that allows me to come into the room and check on him and have him still be able to fall asleep - without me giving him a feeding, you know? Would very much appreciate your insite. Thank you!
Erika,
ReplyDeleteThere are a couple ways to do this depending on where you look:
1)If he cries when you put him down or start to put him down lay him completely then pick him back up and repeat as needed.
2)If you feel he would benefit from a couple moments to settle himself then do that. Feel it out. Listen for the mantra cry. He may be doing this, in which case you would leave him to do that since it is a form of settling, not a crying out to mom.
3) You may want to try some shush/pat or something similar after you lay him back down if he starts to cry again. If this doesn't work then start over with the picking up again.
Some babies will be a bit resentful, as you put it, the next morning. Or maybe sometimes it is just in our head! Or maybe they are just overtired. Either way, it is way sad! I am a sucker for a sad child. But he'll forget all about it soon I promise. And you'll both be happier and more rested. Plus, keep in mind that you are by his side during Pu/pd helping him through it.
He may have gone to sleep quicker with cio, but I totally agree to not do it if it isn't for you. Sometimes we plan on doing something pre-children (or even post-children) and find out later that there is no way we can do it! I've been there.
Good luck! Hope I answered your questions.
Rachel
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI'm back! PUPD has been going really well for me. I can put my baby down to sleep without rocking and she goes off on her own. Also she naps for a good length of time. She's 8 months now.
Anytime she stirs in the night,I can just sssh through her baby monitor and she goes back to sleep- until a couple of nights ago. She woke at 10.30 and wouldn't calm with the shh-ing. Gave her some pain relief(as I thought it might be teething) and got her to sleep after an hour and a half by putting my hand on her chest and shh-ing. Then she woke again at 2am. I did pupd and eventually gave her some pain relief (had to wait so as to leave a safe time between doses) - she finally went to sleep after 2 hours of this. Then her first nap that day was awful - took an hour and a half to get her to sleep.
Last night she woke at 10 again and started to be playful. I put my hand on her chest to ssh her - she turned away to play with the side of her cot so I ducked out of view and when she started to moan, I shhed and she went to sleep. She woke at 3am, I went in and put my hand on her chest and she got really playful this time- clapping her hands and saying "mum mum mum". I didn't know what to do so did a bit of ssh-ing, pupd and hand on the chest etc. As she was not distressed, I eventually left the room. She started crying so I shhed her through her monitor which didn't work and then just collapsed on my bed. She actually cried herself to sleep in the end. She then woke up crying at 6am so I got her up for the day.
So basically, I'm not convinced this is all down to teething. I think she's waking for attention and to play. What do I do because it seems that going into her and putting my hand on her chest etc is exactly the sort of attention she wants. I feel like all my sleep training which has worked so amazingly well is falling apart!!!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteSorry things are getting tough again! Sleep is often an up and down thing which gets better over time. I would expect it to get worse on and off and maybe that will make it not so frustrating. Easier said than done though! When there are periods of regression you make sure things are ok like you did then continue on with our sleep training methods like you did in the past, adjusting them slightly for age if needed. I would give her no attention unless she cries since she likes the attention. Maybe walking in and telling her it is time to sleep then leaving would work? Really depends so much on the baby and their age. Maybe you'll have to go in, when she calms, take a step back (making sure to not look at her) and slowly leave the room if she stays calm and go to her side if she gets really upset. Oh, and make sure you give her a minute to see if she's going to go back to sleep on her own when she wakes.
Sorry you are tired mommy. I feel for you, I've got two sick kids over here!
Thanks, Rachel. Last night she woke a million times but the first time, I let her cry for about 5minutes (as she didn't sound really distressed, just a bit miserable) and she went back to sleep. She did this every time she woke. So I didn't have to get out of bed or do anything but I still didn't get much sleep.
ReplyDeleteI know you're right about sleep being up and down. Plus she has been teething a bit and is getting over her first ever cold so I suspect this must have some kind of affect. I will stick to the training methods, as you suggest, and hopefully we'll get back on track again.
Thanks so much and I hope your two get well soon!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteSo glad to hear that she went back to sleep by herself last night! Hope things get back on track soon. I'm here if you need me :)
Thank you.
ReplyDeleteAt the moment, she's been in bed for 2 hours and just started moaning for a few minutes and went back to sleep so I'm expecting to have a night of her waking up a lot again.
I know I said I doubted it was teething but could that be the problem?? She had a really bad day of teething yesterday - lots of crying, really red cheeks - but I thought if she woke at night with teething pain, she would be screaming rather than just doing the kind of moaning she's doing at the moment. And if she was waking in pain, I would've thought she wouldn't be able to self-settle like she has been without some attention or pain relief?
I'm taking the approach that even if she's waking a lot in the night, if she's settling herself back to sleep, I should just leave her to it. It's just really hard as we're getting no sleep!!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteI've noticed with both my kids that if they don't feel good they may not sleep great, even if they are not crying in bed. I know because of the pattern that goes on. For example, my 3 year old sleeps good 99.9% of the time. He woke up crying 3 times last week. Then he woke up whining the next day. then I didn't hear him wake up the next night but he was tired the next morning meaning he probably didn't sleep good. My 8 month old has been sick too (we have been sick here for like 2 months!!!) and I was giving him ibuprofen and tylenol because he was a miserable reck and wouldn't sleep at all without it. He started to act better during the day so I decided he didn't need the medicine. But then he didn't sleep. I gave the medicine and he slept again. A couple days later he acted even better in the day so I didn't give him medicine before sleep and he was finally able to sleep without it. That was a lot to say, but i'm just showing you some patterns I've seen with illness and sleep. It can have interesting effects that vary from kid to kid.
I think your approach is good. I try not to give meds unless my child is really miserable. A little sickness feeling or pain won't kill them (although I don't like it!) if that is what is going on. If she is crying and sick/in pain then that is different. She may simply be going through a phase and she'll get over it before you know it. Either way, she's getting better at self soothing.
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThank you, everything you've said makes sense. But I think I've figured out the problem (if not the solution!). She used to take 3 naps a day but recently she's been resisting the 3rd one and is really tired by bed time. I think this is making her really restless in the night. The other day, in the midst of this night waking period, I actually got her to take the 3rd one at 5.20pm. She slept until 6.40pm, got up had a bottle and a bedtime story, then went to bed at 7pm and slept soundly until 6.30am.
So yesterday, she wouldn't have her 3rd nap so I put her to bed really early (6pm) as she was so tired. I didn't have to get up to her in the night but I could hear she was restless and woke up a lot for fairly long periods. She finally woke for the day at 6am , which is normal for her but she was crying, which isn't normal for her.
So clearly, that late nap is the key...but if she's trying to drop it, I'm not quite sure what to do to ensure a good night other than keep putting her to bed early and riding it out, I suppose!!
...oh, and I hope you all get well soon!!
ReplyDeleteMichelle,
ReplyDeleteIf morning wake time is at 6, you probably need to do bedtime earlier than 6pm. hopefully you can shift the whole routine back eventually though.
Often a nap that close to bedtime causes issues, but not always. My son jacob went to bed 1 hour after a mini nap for a while. We worked with different things but this is what worked with him. But watch to see if it causes issues if you keep doing it. IT is possible that she is so overtired it helped her right now but might backfire when she is less overtired.
I hope we get better soon too! Never ending sickness is starting to drive me a bit crazy!
ReplyDeleteHi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteSorry if I've misunderstood or confused - I'm saying that she used to have a nap close to bedtime and would always sleep through the night. But now she's dropping that nap and her bedtime sleep seems affected so I'm putting her to bed earlier to make up for the lack of nap. I'd gladly add that 3rd nap back in but she won't have it!! Is that what you mean?
Also, what's the reason you suggest putting her to bed earlier than 6pm? (I'm not doubting you - just seems a really early bedtime!! - does she need more than 12 hours night sleep? Or is it that her day is too long?)
Lastly, although I do think the nap dropping is affecting her night sleep she is also getting over a cold and when I have to go into her into the night she's really snuffly. I think these things combined with possible teething are all creating the problem - especially as last night it took 2 hours to get her back to sleep and she finally settled after having some pain relief. When will the teething end?!! She hasn't got any sign of teeth yet!!!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, with some babies that are more sensitive to sleep changes you end up having a tough transitional period whenever nap changes etc occur.
When you drop a nap, many babies do need more than the usual 12 hours (or whatever they often get) for a while as they get used to being up for longer periods of time. So if you normally had a 7-7 routine, you might end up with a 6-7 routine for a while that slowly move back to a 7-7 routine.
You could always try making the 3rd nap a little bit later to see if she'll take it. It might night sleep less than 12 hours, but if it works better then you might want to do it for a while before dropping the 3rd nap.
Teething is no fun! Sorry.
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteAlso, it is fine to doubt me (and certainly a good idea to question my advice), I'm just giving the best suggestions I can. There is always more than one way to do something, and every child is so different :)
Also Also, make sure you do not too easily consider teething as the route of all fussiness, bad sleep etc. This is a common thing for parents to do, from what I've heard. Things like increased saliva production, periods of fussiness with bad sleep, putting everything in the mouth, sucking on the hands, are all natural things that babies start to do as they get older. Sure, they can be related to teething, but they often aren't too. Of course, it might actually be teething, I just wanted to throw this thought out!
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your advice again - makes perfect sense.
Just to update - I completely agree about the teething thing - lots of people put everything down to it. I was trying not to assume teething but it seems to be the best explanation. Throughout this whole poor sleeping episode, she's been crying a lot with her tongue pushed up against her gums, her cheeks have been alternately flushing and all that settles her is pain relief. I even took her to the doc just to check she didn't have an ear infection or something else (she didn't). Anyway, things seem to have settled now - the 3rd nap seems to have gone and she's sleeping 6-6/6.30 (which fits what you said - she's now sleeping 12 hours where as previously, she was sleeping 11). I'm sure I'll be posting again in the future but for now, thanks again for your help!!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome!
As expected, I'm back again - sorry! My baby is now 9 months old. Everything was going well - she'd settle to sleep on my shoulder til drowsy, I'd put her in her cot awake but sleepy and leave the room.
ReplyDeleteShe still has good naps and sleeps 12 hours at night but the problem is she has started to fight when I'm settling her on my shoulder and if I leave the room, she cries. She might start off calm but will then start pushing, squirming, trying to climb down my body and crying. At first I took this to mean "put me down!" so I either put her down in her cot and left the room, at which point she'd cry, or put her down and stay with her/try to calm her in her cot, at which point she'll either start playing or crying. If I keep holding her, she just works herself up into a frenzy.
I've tried to stick to the principles of PUPD but once in her cot, she doesn't really cry hard enough for the pick up bit and if I just try to use a hand on her chest, she'll get excited/start crying eventually.
I don't know what I've done wrong. The only thing that's changed is that she spends one day a week with my mum so I can work and she's fine with her. The only thing I can think is that my mum says when she puts her down in her cot to nap, if her eyes open, she puts her hand on her chest til she falls asleep (where as I always used to just leave the room). Could this slight difference have totally changed her behaviour? Even if it does, it doesn't explain why she's fighting me... As always, any suggestions you have are very welcome!! Thank you.
...just had a thought - could she be trying to transition to 1 nap a day?? She only dropped to 2 about a month ago. But this morning, she's been up for nearly 4 hours now and not yet showing sleepy signs....
ReplyDelete..or maybe she's just ready for longer awake periods?? She went down for her nap after just over 4 hours awake time. She woke after 1min 10 crying so I shh-ed her via her baby monitor and now she's been asleep 2 and a half hours! I'm a bit worried that's too long....?
ReplyDeleteHi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteI was hoping for a little advice. My daughter is 3 months (14 weeks) and has basically had no real routine. We just started the baby whisperer but I have some questions. In regards to the PU/PD, she starts to scream as soon as she is swaddled (should we skip swaddling?) and does not settle on my shoulder with the shush/pat. At this point I usually put her down, she continues to scream, I pick her up she continues to scream, etc. I have found she tends to settle better with the shush/pat in the cot but she can really squirm and arch, making it quite difficult to pat. Also, we have been using a dummy which I don't think is a prop as she doesn't wake when it falls out and usually can resettle herself without it being put back, but it is hard to keep her dummy in when she is screaming and I am trying to do PU/PD and shush/pat. When she settles a bit more she will keep it in herself and can usually go off to sleep with it. Do you think I should leave it out or keep attempting to put it back in to help her settle herself. Finally (and I know this is a lot) should I be aiming for a 3 hour routine or transitioning to 4 hours already? Prior to starting this she was eating every 2.5-3 hours, and sometimes every 2. Thanks so much for any insight you can give me on any of these questions. I really like the philosophy behind Baby Whisperer but I want to get it right so I can be consistent and see results!
Thanks,
Nicole
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteshe is definitely not ready for just one nap. She might need more waketime though. Some babies will act fine until you put them to sleep and then you know they are ovetired. My son jacob is like this. So don't let the lack of sleep cues fool you. Likely she needs between 2-3.5 hours waketime right now varying throughout the day. waketime is usually shorter first thing in the morning, and gets longer as the day goes one. That is not always the case though.
Some kids are very sensitive to change. Her one day away from you migth be the problem. I remember my sister saying that she held her 12 month old to sleep once, and then she cried for a couple weeks after that while going to sleep when she hadn't done it for months. One sensitive girl! I think this is less likely the problem though. Likely it is some sort of phase. My kids have both gone througth these. My son jacob, almost 10 months, just finished going through one of these. For several days he cried when I put him down. Usually the crying didn't last for more than 1-2 seconds once I left the room. a couple times it lasted a couple minutes. It disappeared as quickly as it started. He is fine now. I think it often has to do with different things they are learning in their world---separation etc. With my boys I have found that it is best to act confident and put them down and leave. They have done well with this. If they stay upset for more than a couple minutes I will check on them (only happend very rarely). They once again get upset when I leave but then go right to sleep. It is always a good idea to make sure illness or something else isn't going on--but that likely wouldn't be so long term.
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for your advice. Yes, it does seem to be some kind of weird phase. And you're right, as she's getting older, weirdly, I'm finding it harder to read her sleep cues.
Do you think walk in/walk out might be appropriate to use at this age? I've resisted it so far as I'm reluctant to use anything that involves leaving her crying (and I know the BW doesn't recommend leaving them to cry). But if she cries when I leave the room, and I return and stay, it usually turns into playing and then it takes aaaages to get her to sleep.
Nicole,
ReplyDeleteIt isn't uncommon for a baby to get upset when swaddled if she knows it means sleep and she is fighting sleep and wants to play instead.
Since you are just starting the routine, I would probably keep to the 3 hours routine right now (especially since you did 2 hours at times before) and worry about extending things once stuff gets more stable.
Both my kids got to an age where they resisted settling on my shoulder at sleep time. I think they wanted to either get put in the crib or they were just fighting sleep. With some babies they just need to scream for a few minutes on your shoulder to settle. And with the pacifier, I think the baby whisperer would say to drop it since it is sort of a prop with pu/pd. But I mgiht let baby cry a bit and put it in (I found that sometimes after a few minutes of crying baby will suddenly accept it happily and be calmed) since it doesn't seem to be a problem outside of this. But if you do this, be careful of what is happening and make sure it doesn't seem to get causing more problems.
And doing shush-pat first is a good idea. I would do pu/pd only if this doesn't work, especially at this age.
Hope that helped and didn't make you feel more confused!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteI think allowing your child to cry is a very personal decision. It isn't one I can make for you. I will say that I don't agree with the baby whisperer (and others) that it will break your child's trust among other things. I am ok with letting my children cry some. I do very little (if any) during the newborn time and will increase it when they are older and I feel more comfortable with it. Honestly, the methods I use during the newborn time (much of which are baby whisperer ones) haven't work as great when my kids have gotten older (although they really do work great for other kids) and I move to other methods which might involve a little crying. With Jacob, almost no crying. He was used to how things went, it was rarely more than a few secons after I left the room. We started off with good habits and went from there. he is more easier going than my first, but I think experience really helps too. It is hard to say how I knew, but I would just know if I should leave the room, or stay a moment, or double check on him etc so that I didn't end up giving more attention than needed which could have resulted in sleep issues. anyway, I totally went off subject! Ok, if you decide to do some crying, then you might want to do the ferber checks (see link) or what the book 12 horus by twelve weeks suggest--pretty much with this one you check on baby every 5 minutes of crying (start time over if they stop crying) and you go in and soothe, when they stop crying you leave again.
Thank you so much for replying!
ReplyDeleteI do think the pacifier is becoming a bit of a prop but I am changing so many other things at once... When i started this I thought I must be doing something wrong because there was so much intense crying around nap time, but now she is settling much easier. I still need to do shush/pat or at least have a firm hand on her to get her to sleep but its only been 4 days and it beats rocking her for 30 minutes.
I have been doing a 3 hour routine but she doesn't always seem hungry before I feed her, which makes me think I should be transitioning. But I have been feeding on demand so its strange to feed her without her crying for it first.
The hardest part has been trying to extend the naps. Yesterday I spent 40 minutes after her first sleep cycle trying to get her back to sleep. There was a lot of really intense crying whether I picked her up or did the shush/pat. When I finally did get her to settle, she never got past light sleep and woke up and started screaming again. Its those times that I think surely this isn't what Tracy means?
Anyway, I am just venting now.
Thank you so much for this site. It is so helpful and you are a saint for replying to all of us!!!
Hi,
ReplyDeleteThanks so much again for your advice. Since I posted this, I've been putting her in her cot , leaving the room and she starts to cry so I leave her a minute, if she doesn't calm, I've been shushing outside her door. So I'm kind of leaving her to cry a little bit - I think you're right, a little doesn't hurt. I'm trying to peak through the door while I do it so when she starts settling, I can reduce/stop the shushing (don't want it to become a prop). It seems to be anything that involves me going back into her room is a bit disastrous as she gets too stimulated by my presence so I'm trying to avoid that!
On the whole, her nap routine's a bit all over the place - some days she's having 2 long naps, others one long one and one short. Or, like today, a decent one in the morning (1hr 15) and then just 20mins in her pram in the pm. So bedtime is varying wildly between 6.30 - 7.30pm. I suppose I've just got to ride with it! Strangely enough, she always wakes between about 5.45/6am no matter when she goes to bed.
Nicole,
ReplyDeleteI agree, dropping the pacifier would add to the changes right now. But if it ends up making success difficult then you might want to consider it. Just watch to see how much it hurts/helps. It will be tough at first, but probably tons better in a few days, sometimes even a couple nap periods.
It is possible she might be able to go longer than 3 hours between feeds, but I would hold off on extending right now until other thigns get a bit under control. If it becomes more of an issue, then you can always try some 3.5 periods and see what happens. She may also just be more preoccupied with her environment which comes with age. And, like you said, it is different when baby gets fed when she is starting to get hungry instead of crying for food.
Extending naps is a VERY hard thing to do. I'd keep it up and if there are no improvments after several days consider holding off on it for a while like suggested in my extending nap post. Some babies just need more time for this to work. Good luck,
Rachel
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteSounds like you found something that works for the two of you which is great!
Her daily routine will probably get more consistent as you get used to reading her and she gets used to going to sleep and staying asleep well by herself. It can take longer for some babies to get into a routine and mom needs to help them more.
Remember (and you may be doing this) to keep as many variables as consistent as possible when sleep training. Or probably for a couple weeks. Same place to sleep, sleep routine etc. Good luck!
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThank you - yes, I'm trying to keep things consistent. Things have improved greatly - I had to do the shushing outside the door for a coule of days, gradually reducing it. Now I'm back to putting her down awake and she's going off to sleep by herself, which is great.
Once more, thank you so much!!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteGreat to hear!
Rachel
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you can help us but we feel a bit like we're trapped in a hellish cycle at the mo. My daughter will be one in two weeks time. She's never been the best sleeper but she used to go down awake and get herself to sleep within maybe 5-10mins of chattering/gentle moaning, then wake once for a bottle during the night, again going down afterwards just fine. Throughout the winter she had one illness after another, followed by several bouts of severe teething and bottom line we've all slipped into bad habits...culminating with where we are today: she will only go to sleep at night cuddled on my lap and I then put her down into her cot once she's sound asleep. During the evening/night she may now wake as many as 3 or 4 times and I generally repeat the process to get her back to sleep. I am exhausted. I'm also at work half the week - I work as a nanny and she comes with me those days.
Oddly, she usually goes down for daytime naps without a problem - a little snuggle on my alp and then I put her down sleepy but awake and she drifts off to sleep without upset.
We tried the PU/PD technique last night for the first time. It took about 1 3/4 hrs with us standing over her cot, one hand on her, but never picking her up, and she went back to sleep. Today's sleep has been horrendous, now including naps...she's not gone down happily at all and has taken hours at every nap and bedtime, too. Tonight I did the worst thing and gave in and picked her up and cuddle her to sleep as an hour in she was just getting more and more hysterical.
I just don't know what to do now. Should it have this kind of effect? Are we doing it all wrong? Is it normal for it to make all sleep worse to begin with? I feel so guilty now for messing with her head and I'm sure she's so confused now. She was so upset tonight.
Charlotte,
ReplyDeleteSorry or what you are going through. Sleep training can be so tough, as can a super tired mommy!
I don't think it is unusual for her o act the way he is ctin. She my also get clingy while awake for a Few day. Every baby varies, but she will likely have some success within a couple days as well as some days where she does worse.
As for pu/pd, it often works well when you walk all the way out of th room at this age, wait a very short time( listen o what rise are going on) then return nd repeat as needed. See what works best or you guys. Good luck!
I don't think it is unusual for her to act the way she is acting. She my also get clingy while awake for a few day. Every baby varies, but she will likely have some success within a couple days as well as some days/nights where she does worse.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the typos!
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI'm back again - although nowhere near as stressed out as when I've previously posted!
I have a nap question.
My baby is 10.5months now. She's started taking really long morning naps (anything up to 2.75 hours). She has them quite early so will have another one in the afternoon but never seems to really have more than 3 hours daytime sleep in total. This was great and she was going to bed as normal and sleeping 11/12 hours.
The problem now is that she's increasingly waking at 5.30am and the other night she wouldn't go to bed and one night she woke at around 12am - all of which I take as meaning she's getting too much daytime sleep.
So typically she's been waking at around 5.30am, napping from 8.30 - 11ish, then another nap 2.30 for between 30mins/1 hr. Then bed between 6pm-7.30pm.
Yesterday, I woke her in the morning after 1hr45 and then in the afternoon woke her after 45 mins (which she wasn't happy about) but she went to bed at 7.15 and woke at 6.30am.
Today she had a nap at 9.30 I woke her in the morning after 1hr45 and she was grumpy and then she crashed this afternoon in the car and napped for 30mins.
Do you think I should be waking her from naps? Or should I let her sleep as long as she likes for the morning nap and just limit the afternoon nap? OR is it just a case of putting her to bed late when she's had lots of day sleep and early if she's just had the one long nap??
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don't especially like to do it, I do think waking from naps is often necessary to keep a good bedtime hour and night time sleep. As you have pointed out, too much day sleep will cause night wakings and will also make it hard for many kids to initially go to sleep, regardless of waketime length.
I would be surprised if 3 hours total was too much day sleep at this age, but it is possible.
It is always a bit tricky for me to figure out sleep when the morning nap is super long and there is a short afternoon nap. I'm not saying that it can't work, it can just be a bit harder to trouble shoot and some kids have issues with overtiredness in the evening with this and difficulty taking the evening nap at all. Just something to watch for and it is possible it is causing some of the issues. I wonder what would happen if you limited the morning nap to 1.5 hours and did an afternooon nap a few hours after that for 1.5-2 hours-ish. (do you like my made up word :)
THe night waking could also be from overtiredness or sleep organization that doesn't work well for her. Sometimes the early waking (make sure to look at the early morning waking post) can happen from too early of a nap. You might want to aim for a morning nap time and put her to bed a little early if she wakes early, but not extremely early.
Yes, I think I will try what you say about the 1.5 hrs in the morning and then another 1.5-2hrs in the afternoon.
ReplyDeleteWith your last point, do you mean try to keep her up as long as possible in the morning before letting her nap (and then wake her after 1.5hrs)? On a good day, when she wakes at 6.30am, she doesn't go down for a nap until 9.30 - does that sound about right?
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteNo, certainly don't keep her up as long as possible. That'll cause issues in itself. I mean to not work solely by waketime since that might make a really early nap which could be causing the early waketimes (note, COULD--it's hard to tell for sure). So I would work on keeping both things in mind. I would put baby to bed a little early for her nap if she wakes a little early, a bit earlier than that if she wakes really early in the morning. Like maybe between 15-30 minutes early. It really depends on how sensitive baby is to overtiredness. Sometimes you can let them sleep a bit longer if they wake early in the morning, but for some babies it backfires.
You might want to go with 6:30 being your 'normal' start time for the day and working to make it later once your day gets figured out. It will likely be easier to get things figured out this way so you aren't having to introduce other factors into the mix. I can't say for sure if 3 hours is a good morning waketime. Is that what she's normally done? I would think it would be around that, give or take half an hour.
With the second nap, you will probably have a wakeitme that is slightly less than previously since the first nap is going to be shorter than it used to be.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteYes, her normal waketime in the morning is around 3 hours and she seems to stick to this no matter what time she gets up. I try to go by her sleepy cues rather than fixate too much on wake time. Yesterday, she was up at 6.00 and had a nap at 9. I intended to wake her after 1.5hrs but she woke herself after that time (which was great!)
Then she got sleepy again 3.75hrs later. She fought against this nap a little. I woke her after 1.5hrs - I'm sure she would've gone longer but it was 3.45pm so I didn't want her to sleep too late and I thought longer than 1.5hrs might be too much?? She went to bed at 7.15pm and woke at 6am.
It's a really tricky one, isn't it because it feels so unnatural to wake them from sleep. And it's so tempting when she's having one of her really long morning naps (2-2.75 hours) to just let her sleep!!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteI bet the 3.75 hours was too long for her with a 1.5 hour nap prior. Likely that caused the fighting of the nap. Try to drop it in length a bit and see what happens.
Yeah, I hate waking babies up. But sometimes it really is the way to get babies to sleep well. It is nice if you can go with babies natural flow, but sometimes what they do naturally results in caos so you have to push them a little bit more than you might do otherwise. I even have to wake my 3.5 year up EVERY day from his nap. If I don't he'll sleep for 3-4 hours then won't fall asleep until an insanely late hour and wakes up cranky in the morning. It's annoying to always feel like I'm disrupting his sleep, but really, if I don't, he is a miserably cranky boy. The key now is to find out when to wake him so I get him at a good time in his sleep cycle.
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteIt's just so hard to read her at the moment. YOu're probably right about 3.75 A time being too long but today for example, she was at her gran's and she woke at 6am and didn't nap until 10am! Gran woke her at 11.30 am after 1.5hrs (as this is what I'd told her to do although I didn't imagine she would be awake for 4 hours beforehand!) Then she seemed sleepy about 3 hours later, went down for a nap and woke 2mins later chatting. So Gran tried again and finally got her down at 3.50pm and she slept for 30mins - so that was a really long A time!
I totally see your point about having to wake them - it's just hard to be consistent as she differs so much day to day. I'm keeping a sleep log so it's just trial and error I guess!
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteI don't think it is uncommon for kids to lose their sleepy cues as they get older, or at least not have them until they are overtired. Good luck. It can be so tricky to figure out, especially with some kids.
Dear Rachel,
ReplyDeleteNot sure what's in it for you, all this help you're giving sleep deprived mums, but you're doing a very noble thing. I wonder if you can help me... I have just decided to use pu/pd with my four month old as I am concerned that she has become a little dependent on her dummy. She is on 4hr easy and I have used TBW book since day one. She has slept from 11 - 7 a number of times, but it's not consistent and this week has been waking at 2,3,4 etc. most nights. I have been able to settle her with the dummy but my concern is that she is no longer able to sleep without it - hence trying pu/pd. By the way, have had mixed success with pu/pd so far. V good last night for going to sleep, but wind down ritual and routine is fairly secure. Fed her when she woke at 4.30 as she wouldn't stop crying, even on me. Used pu/pd for morning nap (took 15 mins) but she woke after half an hour and although I did pu/pd for a further hour (thus eating into all of the remaining nap time!) she did not sleep. I abandoned the nap and changed her and fed her at 11. She's now chillin' happily in her chair; she doesn't seem too bothered but is quiet. Am planning to try for the afternoon nap at about 12.45 using pu/pd again and hoping for more success... I hope this is the right approach. Anyway, my question is: what do you do when out and about (in town, in the car) around nap times. I can't do pu/pd when driving! So, can I use the dummy do you think or would this negate all the hard work at home, trying to wean her off the dummy? Many thanks if you are able to help. Apologies for very long post!
AliceK,
ReplyDeleteSorry for the late reply as I was out of town.
Hopefully things with pu/pd are going well. I do wonder if she is waking from hunger at night since there might be a growth spurt going on. Make sure she is getting good daily food. I wouldn't think this was the case if she woke at 2 though, that it likely too soon for her to need to eat even with a growth spurt.
That is tricky to know what to do when you are out and about for naps. If I was in a public place I would use a dummy to get her to go to sleep with as little crying as possible. I would probably use a dummy in the car too because I would go a bit crazy with tons of screaming while I'm driving. Hopefully it won't cause too many problems with sleep at home since the sleep out and about is so different from that at home. If you notice it makes things worse, you might have to change things up. Either way, I would try to make sure she isn't screaming in public because that isn't fair to other people. Maybe trying snuggling her really closely, putting her in a baby carrier, walking her around in a pram etc to get her to go to sleep if the dummy isn't working out.
I hope you get some good sleep soon!
Rachel
Hi, my little girl is 19 weeks and is exclusively breast fed. She feeds 3 hrly round the clock, but recently has started waking at night in between her feeds during the early hours (so she'll feed at say 9, 12, 3, 6, but will also wake at 2 and 4!) When she wakes at 2 and 4, we've been using PU/PD, which is working really well to get her back to sleep within a few minutes - but - will it ever stop her actually waking in the first place? We've been doing it a week, so happy to continue if it'll stop the waking, but if not, what else can we try? Sharon.
ReplyDeleteSharon,
ReplyDeletePU/PD usually does stop them from waking eventually, or they wake and put themselves right back to sleep. "Wake to sleep" might also be a good idea to try.
Rachel
Dear Rachel,
ReplyDeleteI've been reading your site for the last few days and I think I've probably read every word. It's been so helpful! I started implementing your advice on PU/PD, dreamfeed and extending short naps about a week ago and last evening my (almost) 5 month old son went off to sleep on his own after I put him in his cot AND slept the whole night through. He did wake up twice but went back to sleep within 5 seconds. Earlier, I was having to rock / feed him to sleep and he used to get up many times (upto 10 times) at night! So, thank you!! I've recommended your site to all the new parents I know!
I haven't had too much luck with extending short naps though. He's always taken really short naps - started with 10mins a nap when he was new born and is up to 30 mins a nap, thrice a day now. Wake to sleep extends the nap to 45 mins sometimes but usually he wakes up in 30 mins. The difference that I've noticed is that he now doesn't wake up crying usually. But I was wondering if you had any suggestions on what else I can do or perhaps he's ok with 30 min naps?
Thanks,
Avantika
Avantika,
DeleteYeah! It is so good to hear success stories and know that I am helping to make some people's lives a little easier--and some babies a lot less tired!
With naps that short, my guess is that he is overtired. And with only three 30 minute naps a day he likely would be. I would 1) have an early bedtime to make up for the short naps 2) watch the wake time closely 3) consider going in before he wakes to help him through the sleep transition by shh/pat or something similar, consider helping him fall back asleep for naps even if you are a sleep prop (assuming if it doesn't cause issues in other areas--usually it does't if he goes to sleep fine otherwise). There are a couple more things on the short nap and extending a short nap posts so I'd look over those for a first (or maybe second?) time.
Good luck! Congrats on the improvement with sleep!
Rachel
Rachel,
DeleteThanks for your reply!
His schedule is as follows: Sleep at 6:45pm, Dreamfeed at 10:30pm, Wake time at 6:45am. Naps at 9, 12 and 3 for 30 - 45mins each. He usually feeds in 2 to 2.5 hours until bedtime. I had a few further questions:
1. What would you recommend I move his bedtime to considering the short naps?
2. Sometimes (like today) he doesn't feel sleepy by the bedtime, should I still put him in bed and do PU/PD since he cries then. Or should I do other things like rock/sing etc until he feels sleepy and then put him down?
3. He usually wakes up between 5:30 - 6:45am once and cries - I can't tell if he's hungry or not for sure so I feed him and then he goes back to sleep if it's before his wake up time. Do you think I should not do this and do PU/PD instead?
Thanks!
Avantika
The interviewer,
Delete1) Try moving the bedtime earlier a bit every few days and see how he does. Most of the time you stop moving it when your child starts to wake up early, but this is if your child isn't really overtired to begin with. You can probably move it 30-60 minutes earlier without a problem. You will just have to see how he does with it.
2) If he will rock until sleepy and still doesn't know how to go to sleep on how own without getting upset, I would do that and then slowly wean him from that. You will always do the pre-sleep routine later on, but most of the time it will be a relaxing time rather than a time you will help your child get sleepy.
3)Well, if you think he is hungry at this time I'd feed him. If you are not sure, you can try to soothe him in other ways. It maybe be easier if someone besides you tries to soothe him back to sleep. Either way, you can work on trying to move the feeding closer to wake time until it is at waketime. Do this by holding him off a little bit of time. If he seems starving and won't hold off on the feed, then you might want to wait until he seems more ready to go longer at night. You can try wake to sleep at this time too. Maybe at 4:30 or 5. It may or may not work but you might consider it worth a shot.
Good luck!
Rachel
Thanks Rachel. (Not sure why it shows 'the interviewer' instead of my name!) I'll definitely try out these suggestions.
DeleteI also wanted to let you know that I live in Bombay, India. So you're helping babies across nations! :)
Avantika
Hi Rachel
DeleteIt's me again. Unfortunately, my baby's gone back to pre sleep training habits! He cries when I put him down in his cot and takes 30 mins of PU/PD to go to sleep. He's also started getting up in the night and sometimes staying awake for a long time. I'm so disappointed that I've almost given up and fed him to sleep today. Do you have any suggestions for me?
Thanks,
Avantika
AvanTika,
DeleteWonder week?
Normal sleep regression? Remember that sleep training is a spiral.
Pain?
Evaluate wake times and sleep cues
And hello in India :)
DeleteHi Rachel -
ReplyDeleteHow long do you shush/pat before you try pu/pd? We are taking away the pacifier from my 4.5 month old because she wakes multiple times a night for it. I was planning on only focusing on that. She is also a short napper but I thought one thing at a time! She went to sleep ok without the paci (with some shush/pat) but woke after about 30 minutes so I tried to extend the nap. She became hysterical after about 15 minutes.
thanks!
Leah
Leah,
ReplyDeleteIt will vary with each child and how they react how long you will do it. Usually if they are getting more upset with shush/pat give it a few moments longer and if things still escalate move onto pupd.
Kristy says (moved from habitual wakings post),
ReplyDeleteWow, so awesome you take time to answer everyone's posts- thank you!
My son is 9 months old and has never been a good sleeper at night, but it's been even worse lately. He learned to crawl and pull up a few weeks ago and now when we put him down to sleep, he just pulls up and stands crying. We tried letting him CIO but only lasted 20 minutes because he was completely hysterical. So, we bounce him to sleep and put him down, he wakes up 30 minutes later and we repeat until we've had enough and we strap him in his carseat and rock him and then he'll sleep anywhere from 2-5 hours. We need a new strategy! Does P.U./P.D. work? What do we do about the standing?
Rachel says...
krissy,
Pupd definiantly works much of the time. With your situation I'd work on practicing getting up and down from a standing position. Sounds like he is standing then protest crying more than just standing and crying for help to get down. Either way, I would PD when he is sitting or standing and crying. If he isn't crying but standing, give him as little attention as possible so he doesn't seek for additional attention and possibly even turn things into a game.
hi Rachel
ReplyDeletethanks for a great blog! I tried to read as many posts and responses, so hopefully i'm not too redundant.
my 4 1/2 month old has been following the BabyWise and BabyWhisperer Eat, play, sleep routine since day 1 and has worked well for us for the most part. She progressed quickly and was sleeping 6 hrs by 2 months. After that, things went downhill and we were waking up every 40 minutes. We think it was a combination of her being aware of her surroundings and accidental parenting. We started PU/PD this week with some success. Couple of questions we'd love to get your perspective on:
4S wind down: sitting, how does this work? When i sit with her she seems to get more stimulated (looking around, making raspberry noises, pushing off of me if i try to hold her so she can't see more). For naps, i can usually put her down and stay with her for a minute and then leave and she'll go to sleep without assistance (1-2/3 naps a day, but not all of them). But I'd like to set her up for success as we are sleep training. Any thoughts here? Seems even more important as the day goes on and naps get more difficult.
extending naps or wake-to-sleep: this is particularly an issue for us extending naps. She has a 40-min. sleep cycle and RARELY sleeps past this for naps-- sometimes at night too. We have been using PU/PD to extend naps and it's worked, but for how long do we need to do this? 4 days so far and she has only transitioned on her own for two morning naps after PU/PD gets her through the first transition. She will not take a pacifier or sh-pat anymore so not sure how to do wake-to-sleep.
sh-pat: we put her on her back to sleep due to SIDS, do you know why BW says pat the back?
in general, we are just wondering when she will not need our help to transition or go to sleep? probably not a magic answer here :)
She is a breast-fed baby on a 4 hr schedule-- eats at 7, 11, 3, 7 (always starts and 7 and 11 and then may adjust if we can't get her naps to extend or she seems hungry early or sleeps a bit later)
thank you so much in advance for your insight, this is such a great resource!
Dana
utdana,
DeleteIf naps get more difficult as the day goes on, consider that the waketime needs to be shortened (especially if there have been previous bad naps). This excludes the morning nap time. If she goes down better than other naps here, it may simply be bc this often happens with the nap and is normal.
If she fights you while doing soothing for the pre-sleep routine, that usually means she needs less soothing. So read and sing a song(or whatever) then put her in her bed. Many kids get like this as they get older. Maybe walk around with her in your arms for a couple minutes to calm her down.
When you do wake to sleep you don't actually wake up babies (hopefully). They will just stir in their sleep and hopefully start their sleep cycle over. It is only so so effective for extending naps though.
PUPD is somewhat effective for naps, but some kids simply will not extend them until they get older, and sometime pupd just doesn't work the best at nap time compared to the middle of the night. So I'd try it out for a few more days at least and evaluate if you should continue it from there. If she will go back to sleep with a moment of rocking or the swing you may want to try this for now. They often grow out of the habit with age. You may want to go in before or right as she wakes to try to soothe her back to sleep.
The baby whisperer was doing shush-pat before the sids recommendations came. So that is part of the reason she did it. The other is that babies seem to be more soothed on their back than their belly or butt. But, every baby is different...
Sorry, can't say for sure when she will not longer need your help to transition with sleep. Try the suggestions above. Consider leaving her for a few minutes to see if she will transition on her own. Many babies improve a lot at 6 months. Some will not, no matter what you do (it seems to be somewhat genetic) take a long nap until they are closer to 2 years.
Hope that helped!
Rachel
Rachel - please help!
ReplyDeleteWe are on an eat, play and sleep routine and my 7 1/2 month old daughter Daphne has always been either nursed or walked/rocked to sleep. I am no longer nursing and the last 2 months we've always had to walk her around to get to sleep for up to 40 min and cries half the time! Well this past month she has started to physically push off of us and fights us while she is screaming and I just cant do it anymore. I dont know what she wants when she does this, i put her down and she cries, i pick her up and she cries :( so we started the Baby Whisperer sleep routine. Today is our 3rd day and I have many questions.
1. Since she screams, fights and doesnt stop crying when I pick her up its hard to do PU/PD. So If she gets really hysterical ill pick her up and hold her horizontally then put her down. she is still hysterical - should i still do this?
2. Ive noticed she wants to play sometimes and starts rolling all over her crib. So what do I do if she stops crying and starts playing?
3. Ive done the hand on back and saying words to her, but when she cries she rolls on to her tummy and I put my hand on her tummy and she pulls it off? Should I do shush/pat with her even though she's older?
4. When she finally does calm down and settling (no more crying) should I leave or still be shush/patting or have my hand on her? or do I let her settle by herself?
sorry - im desperate - ive shed too many tears and so has she. I wish I knew better from the beginning to sleep train her earlier however im a first tome mama :)
Thanks in advance - Rebecca
Rebecca91,
Delete1) sometimes holding baby for awhile will result in her calming down and she'll calm sooner with practice. But often it works better to pick up for a short while then just put her down after a couple minutes then try to calm again in the crib then repeat pu//pd as needed.
2) try to not give her attention if she is playing. Maybe a short pat and a "time to sleep" will help. Keep the room dark and avoid eye contact and engaging behavior at this time.
3) Shush pat doesn't always work with older kids. If she is pulling your arm off then I'd probably not put it back on or she'll likely turn it into a game.
4) if she'll settle by herself that is best as you are going to work towards this. For now leaving her alone mayn't work. Maybe you'll be able to just stay in her presence and she'll be happy but maybe you will need to keep your hand on nerd or comfort. Do what she needs but not more and you will likely be able to wean the attention over time.
You are doing great mommy. Remind yourself of this when you get up each day :)
Rachel
Sorry Rebecca, but looking at her age again you'll likely want to keep the pu to a short time. If she is sitting, lay her back down. Focus more on comforting With your words and any kind of touch that comforts her--experiment to see what she likes if you are unsure. You may end up being only a slight comfort to her as she struggles to settle to sleep but it will get better with time.
Deletealso she has 2 naps and sleeps from 9ish to 7-7:30 am with usually no wake ups. She will never sleep more than 10ish hours per night straight - is this ok?
ReplyDeleteIf she will not sleep more than 10 hours at night and you have tried an earlier bedtime and she Isn't sleeping a crazy amount during the day that is all you can do so just keep working with it. You may need to drop naps later.
Deleteoh and also I try putting her down early and then she plays for 1/2 hour in her crib? to i stay in there with her while she plays? or do I start the techniques when she starts crying?
ReplyDeleteRebecca91,
DeleteIf she is playing, either leave and give her the chance to fall asleep on her own or stay by her without giving her attention until she needs it.
Hi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteI'd be so grateful for any advice you could give on breaking my 4 month old's habit of ONLY napping in his car seat for his first afternoon nap. He always falls sleeps alone without props, and sleeps fine for most of his sleeps/naps EXCEPT for that first afternoon nap.
He got used to sleeping in the car seat during midday because that has been when I'd go out. I did that to join mommy/baby events for my sanity - we'd moved to a new city and I was feeling isolated and lonely with very few friends. I was also ignorant about baby sleep until about 3.5 months, when I finally realized that the best place for my baby to nap is in his crib (not just night sleep!). I know I'm "behind", but I'd really like to the right thing going forward.
For the midday nap, he'd fall asleep on his own no problem in the crib, but he'd wake up screaming in 20-30 minutes. I can't even get one sleep cycle out of him. I've tried wake to sleep, shush pat, nursing him back to sleep, and recently started PU/PD since he's 4 months, but nothing works. He cries harder and harder. I've stayed home at this hour to get him to nap in the crib for about 4-5 days now and am just seeing no progress at all. I'm at a loss now.
Today, again, he wouldn't stop crying. In order that his day doesn't snowball into a nightmare by late afternoon, I had to make sure that he gets sleep rather than none at all, and I did it by putting him in his car seat. As soon he went in, he calmed down. He just patiently waited for me to buckle him up, cover him, and within seconds he fell asleep. To him, that's the normal routine and midday napping place.
Please, any advice on how to break this habit would be so appreciated. Thank you so much in advance!
Tina
Tina,
DeleteInteresting, I've never heard of a baby falling asleep well at all times but one of his naps!
I'd wonder if the waketime is too long prior and that is why you are only getting a short little nap. Maybe you could try moving the car seat into his bedroom for this nap then try it without the cover then move him to his bed. Car seat in bed would be the easier transition, but you aren't suppose to do that for safety. Make sure to have a similar sleep routine for this nap that you have for all other naps so he sees the connection. You could always have him start the nap in his bed and move him into his car seat but I have a feeling that this could make things worse. He may just get upset as you make this transition and will need time to adjust to it before he'll go to sleep happily.
Rachel,
DeleteThanks soooo much for your response.
I have been logging his wake times and sleepy cues like a stalker for a couple weeks, and I feel like I'm maybe 80% getting it, since he goes to sleep on his own for his other sleeps with zero or minimal protest. I'm finding that, at 4 months, he's still only awake at most 50-60 minutes for this nap, sometimes sooner, and this is after 10-12 hr night sleeps (waking at night to eat usually due to growth spurt or if he didn't get good feedings in during the day because he's a super distracted and curious baby, otherwise sleeping through, PLUS 1+ hour morning nap!!). This wake time feels so short, I don't know if that's normal. His total sleep in a 24-hour span is usually 14-16 hours. That said, I will continue to monitor his wake time for this nap and see if that helps.
I think your transitioning solution sounds brilliant, and will definitely try it. However, I realized yesterday, after reading your article about Wonder Weeks and reading more about it, that he's right smack in the middle of his 19th week leap. I have no idea if that explains some of his fussiness to my "nap training" attempts. He also got his 4 month shots today and is extremely irritable. So, if he shows more resistance, I'll likely back off for maybe a few days or week until he gets better, before starting another round of war of attrition. I will keep you posted!
Thanks so much again!
Tina
Tina,
DeleteGood idea about holding off on chaining things until things settle down. And good catch on the wonder weeks.
If he is only awake for 1 hour and getting a short nap, the short nap may also be causing the short nap. Usually it is longer when this is the case, but not always.
Rachel
This site has been very helpful as I have just started pupd with my eight month old (today was day two). Last night my daughter slept through the night for the first time in over two months! Naps are a little tricky yet and I might have to do "wake to sleep" as she wakes up 45 minutes into her naps and needs help to go back to sleep. Also, last night she went to bed at 6:45pm (I did a dream feed at 9:45pm) but was up at 5:30am so I did pupd to try to extend her morning sleep. In retrospect, since it took an hour to get her back to sleep (she was acting sleepy however, but fought it) I should have tried nursing her and laying her back down. If she does the same thing tomorrow morning I might start trying to get her to take a catnap between 5 and 6 and aim for a 7:30pm bedtime...my only hesitance with that is currently it takes 20 min to settle her for a nap and I don't know if that would give her enough time for a cat nap. I would ideally like her to sleep 7:30pm - 7:00am-ish. Do you think the cat nap idea would enable that to happen? It's really the only part of the EASY four hour plan that I haven't tried yet. Thanks for any thoughts you might have!
ReplyDelete